the only PC ad that I saw in this entire election that is any good, is one that shows a picture of tory saying “leader” and mcgunity saying “misleader”.

tory cant win the election, but he can do his best to make mcgunity lose.

“First he wants to take money out of the public system to subsidize private religious schools.” If you mean out of the public school system, you are incorrect. According to the CBC, the PCs are putting $2.44 billion into education. If you mean out of the public purse, the government already fully funds one faith based system. The cost is $400 million for the other faith based schools, and with the Liberal tab up to about $40 billion ($26 billion in announced government policy spending, as they called it, and now $14.7 billion for their election platform), that’s not too much to pay for fairness. We should be more concerned about the tax hikes the Liberals will impose to pay for all this spending. Money is not heaven sent.

“Money is not heaven sent” LOL tell that to the former PC government who thought it was when they racked up a 5.6 billion dollar deficit! John Tory hasn’t been clear on one single issue and the polls that show his party stuck at 2003 Election levels of support proves it.

It’s clear the PC education platform is designed for two reasons: (1) to get support from minority groups that usually vote for other parties, and (2) to incite a divisive debate that keeps attention off of other issues.

If the PC’s were genuinely interested in expanding public services for the betterment of Ontarians, they’d be trying to match the Liberals and NDP in their promise to fund a public “denticare” program at the fraction of the $400 million it would cost to pay for currently private faith-based schools (the Liberals are pledging $45 million to denticare; the NDP is proposing $100 million).

What’s happened to the PC party of Ontario? A denticare program was their idea in 1942. They’ve had 50 years in power since then to implement it. I mean, 50 creationist-years is something like 30 million evolutionist-years! That’s plenty of time to have implemented a program that benefits the health of all Ontarians.

Last night on a disscussion on TVO McGinty said that he wanted kids of all religions sitting together in the same classroom. I could not agree more. The issue of fairness (as touted by Tory, would not even come up if the Cathloc school system was not so firmly entrenched, some thing we must now live with. All kids should be in the same school unless they paid for their own education elsewere and even then education standards should be upheld. An understanding of the worlds religions should be part of the curriculum but religious education itself is, and should remain, up to the parents. We must NOT segregate the multitude of ethnic classes and religions by encouraging seperation at school age if we are to avoid future confict between these groups. Tory is way out to lunch on this one.

If you want tweak public education, how about adding courses expaining health-care and nursing, to prepare the next generation? How about environmental courses? CBC reported high-school students in Sudbury must make home-energy audits for their coursework. Why must a city first be traumatized by environmental degradation to accomplish this? How about more courses explaining how different cultures live, to ease the continual roll-out of globalization and the economic necessity for diversified trading partners?

When things were even in the runup to the 2007 MB election, the PC candidate made a promise to “bring back the Jets”, an appeal to Saturday night voters. Tory seems to have done the same here with Sunday morning voters.

I’m surprised no political party in any province has made subsidizing a “Canadian Vestas” into existence, a platform position.

One thing that is clear in this entire debate is that there are many versions and opinions on what our educational system should look like. I am surprised an how strongly people who claim to support diversity, who claim to be open and tolerant, are so quick to demand isolation, exclusion and marginalization of all who believe faith is an integral part of educaiton. We are talking 53,000 students and $400,000 spread over the entire province yet they claim the public system is under attack. The introduction of a wider view, a less selfish, self-centered concept of the world would somehow destroy the public system is ridiculous. What all this is about is McGuinty wants to run a campaign on fear, bigotry, lies and deception and the left wing is rallying to that cause – carefull folks, your mask is slipping and your true selves are peeking out.

Ron – that would be $400 million not $400,000. Personally, I could care less about whether these schools are religious or not. But it makes no economic sense to subsidize private schools with public funds. That’s the issue here. If you give these private schools the same $ per student *and* these schools get to continue to collect private tuition, then you give private schools an inherent advantage. If people want to send their kids to private school, fine. But we don’t need to subsidize them with public funds. It’s just bad public policy.

“I am surprised an how strongly people who claim to support diversity, who claim to be open and tolerant, are so quick to demand isolation…..”
And yet by encouraging private and/ or religious schools we would isolate these children from their peers with other faiths or beliefs would we not? I agree that to further segment the funding makes no sense at all, its problematic enough now without adding more complexity to it.

“The introduction of a wider view, a less selfish, self-centered concept of the world would somehow destroy the public system is ridiculous.”

Ron, if I believed religion and altruism were synonymous I’d share your viewpoint. The United States has a very powerful religious right and it isn’t healthy (from an Earthly quality-of-living viewpoint) for their citizens or for there foreign policy. Why wish that upon us?

Even if Tory agrees that Creationism should be taught in public schools, he should know better not to talk about it in an election campaign. It won’t give him any more votes since the same people who vote for him would vote for him regardless of his support on this issue. If anything, it makes it easier for the Liberals to make Tory look like Harper, and that doesn’t win you majority governments in Ontario. While I tend to think some support for religious based schools is no big deal (it’s for special interest groups, and yes, governments always give money to special interest groups), it’s fodder for the media and other organizations who will use it to scare the electorate. Not smart, John. Fire your strategists before you lose the election before it even begins.

“Last night on a discussion on TVO McGuinty said that he wanted kids of all religions sitting together in the same classroom.” If that’s the case, why does he send his kids to a Catholic School? And the remarks about segregation are nonsense. When I was in public school, I had a friend who went to a Catholic school. We got along and played together just fine. It just meant that I had an opportunity to have more friends.

John Tory is running a campaign on trying to create a crisis and bringing about division in Ontario. Our current education system is working fine and has improved from the days of Mike Harris. What John Tory wants is to have private schools that collect private tuition to have public funds also; he just wants to accommodate the rich and the expense of tax payers and is using religion as a disguise. If he genuinely wanted to have funded faith base schools he would state that schools that collect private tuition money would be banned from receiving public funds!

And Grant and those who use Catholic funded schools as your only argument for “equality” in pursing an agenda to create an American system of education that destroys public funding of education in Ontario, please also vigorously argue for fairness for equal access to Health Care. As a resident of Northern Ontario I believe I deserve the same equality and fairness for health care assess to specialists and physicians as those are afforded to residents of Toronto, regardless of the costs…Hey its only fair, right Grant?

Thanks democratic space – I was aware it was 400 million – my typing was my downfall – The point I was getting at in that portion was that there are 53,000 students who have the same right to funding for their education as any other child in the province; funding them is already our obligation and not a new or additional burden to drain funding from the public system. I think most(all) agree these children have the right to a funded education. Where views diverge is over who decides what schools get funding and what criteria should be used. I understand those who support one system – I disagree with them, but I do understand. If you believe the public system provides your child with a decent standard of education, and you believe your ambitions for your child are met within the public system that is fine. However, if you don’t believe these things, what then? The response I am hearing is tough – take what we give you or get out. That is the part I have difficulty accepting. Another difficulty I have is with the concept (expressed by Mr McGuinty and others) that faith based schools segragate and isolate children. I have three children who went through the Catholic school system and I know that to be false. I see a huge irony in that, by closing our public system to these parents and students, we may be creating the very difficulty some opponents of the policy say they fear – isolation and segragation – aren’t the schools and students being isolated and segragated now because of the faith of their parents? (If they aren’t, why would joining the public system start the isolation and segragation?) — These are the quesions I wrestled with before moving to the position I hold now – However, I thrive on challenges to my views, ideas and opinions – sometimes a reasoned arugment can sway me, sometime a weak rebuttle firms up my views so I look forward to reading more on this matter. Oh – by the way, I am a product of the Catholic school system (in Nova Scotia), spent 33 years in the Canadian Forces before retiring and have contributed many many volunteer hours to Scouting, Softball etc – It is quite difficult for me to believe faith based funding will be such a negative in our education system.

Ron – there are 2 issues here: 1) whether or not it is OK to give public money for religious education or not, and 2) whether or not it is OK to give private schools public money. The PC proposal does both.

I know that John Tory says that funding private religious schools will “bring them into the public system”, but unfortunately, it doesn’t. They can still collect private tuition, ergo, they remain private schools that receive a public subsidy.

Leave aside the religious question for a moment. People have a choice to send their kids to private schools. But it is bad public policy for taxpayers to subsidize the cost. What’s worse is every dollar you give to private schools comes out of the public schools, so it’s double jeopardy.

I can tell you, as I’ve lived in the U.S. for a while (where private schools are more common), creating a structural advantage for private schools by providing them with public subsidies would be very harmful to public schools. Any sensible parent will want their kids in schools that have more money and resources, better teachers, etc (and they have this advantage precisely because they are now getting the same public dollars per capita as public schools, plus still collect private tuition). So, clearly, subsidizing private schools would provide an incentive to take your kids out of public schools and put them into private schools (hence the segregation argument). In the U.S., this has been a disaster for public schools.

The entire argument rests on whether or not you see the separate schools are “religious schools” or just another part of the public school system. I think they are the latter today. So, I wouldn’t see having your kids in a separate school as “segregating” them — they are, after all, 1/3 of the system.

If you’ve followed this blog, you will know that I favour keeping the separate school boards as is, but I cannot support subsidizing private schools of any kind, religious or not.

Karl, it is fair that you get the same access to medical care as those who live in Toronto. I certainly care about people in the north. I’ve been fighting to keep the coal plants open and get them cleaned up to keep power rates down for all the people of this province, especially the north. It was heart wrenching to hear a news report last year when I was driving to Thunder Bay. The announcer said, “Another day, another plant closing.” The same goes for reading in Hansard from a committee meeting in Atikokan about the coal plant there. Again, it was heart breaking to hear the cries of the people to keep their plant. Weyerhaeuser said of the four provinces and the five states they operate in, Ontario has the highest energy costs. The Liberal plan to use natural gas will almost if not double the electricity rate. How many plants will close then?

Grant, I’m genuinely pleased of your concern and knowledge of the issues that face the north, since most politicians cannot seem to be bothered. They are always quick to offer a bail out to the auto workers and the film industry but cannot seem to care when the mining or forest industry are in crises. However, John Tory’s plan to fund religious schools will by far devastate Northern Ontario even more then any other region in this province, since the current four systems (French Catholic/Public, English Catholic/Public) as it stands today are losing students at a rapid rate and if continues will be forced to merge as it cannot sustain itself. But if John Tory becomes premier it will add even more systems dividing up even more, the small student population in the North, accelerating a growing crises in the lack of accessible public education to the citizens of Northern Ontario.

Furthermore, let’s be realistic here; Math is still Math, English is still English, and Geography is still Geography regardless of the school a child attends. Alternative ideas such as providing religious studies classes in our Secondary Schools such as Jewish Studies or Islamic Studies within are current public system should be explored, instead of the system Mr. Tory wants to create.

Please don’t get me wrong, I truly believe that educating a child in ones faith is extremely important, however the proposals by John Tory are not the way to go.

Mr. Tory had a big opportunity to make a serious breakthrough in Northern Ontario and the McGuinty Liberals should have been severely punished for the way they handled Northern issues, but I suspect since Mr. Tory wants to stand on his principles regarding this issue he can kiss goodbye any chances

Creationists are a self fulfilling prophecy. Their existance proves that Dinosaurs still walk the earth!

Well it is so funny to hear Dalton talk in the latest ad, public schools are so great because of their inclusivity of all faiths, but he doesn’t send his own kids a public school?

If truly the seperate schools are part of the system why do i need a letter from my “parish priest” to apply for a job there?

Why can we take money out of the public system to fund Catholic schools but not others?

Why can’t Catholic parents pay for their own education if it is so important that they remain seperate from the public system?

I know all about the history and i know that the hostorical reasons no longer apply in Quebec. So why here?

How can Canada consider itself to be a fair and just society when one of its provinces gives special rights to one religious group while denying that same right to other faith groups. Leaders are even calling faith groups (other than theirs that is) as segregationists bent on ripping apart the fabric of Canadian society. How can this be?