A Failure for Canadian Democracy: Other Parties Won’t Allow Greens in Debates
Monday September 08th 2008, 1:10 pm
Filed under: - 2008 Canada Election, Canadian Politics

I will re-print the CBC story in full:

Canada’s broadcasters will not allow the Green Leader Elizabeth May to participate in the leaders’ debates during the federal election campaign, the networks announced Monday afternoon.

The consortium of networks, which includes the CBC, said three of Canada’s parties were opposed the May’s inclusion.

“It became clear that if the Green Party were included, there would be no leaders’ debate,” the consortium said in a press release.

“In the interest of Canadians, the consortium has determined that it is better to broadcast the debates with the four major party leaders, rather than not at all.”

The parties that will take part in the debates are the New Democrats, the Liberals, the Bloc Québécois and the Conservatives.

The debates will take place Oct. 1 and Oct. 2.

Given that 80% of Canadians said the Greens should be allowed to debate, this has to be seen as a failure of Canadian democracy. How is it possible for other parties to decide whether or not their competition is allowed in the debates? We’re stunned.

Update: Reaction to the Greens exclusion is has been overwhelmingly against the decision (for all but the most partisan):

Andrew Coyne — “Democracy Takes a Beating”
Dr. Dawg — “Green exclusion: an anti-democratic travesty”
Stageleft — “Elizabeth May Scares 3 Out Of 4 Political Leaders”
Saskboy — “Party Leaders are Sooky Babies – Media Cartel”
BlastFurnace — “Voters believe in democracy; the networks don’t”
Challenging the Commonplace — “Exclusion of May sends Votes to Greens”
DivaRachel — “Old Boys Club keeps Liz May out of debates”
Sean in Saskatchewan — “May Cut Out of Leader’s Debate…Shame!”
Law in Cool — “Green Party Barred from Election Debates”
The Vanity Press — “Greens Excluded”
Dymaxion World — “Unacceptable”
Cyberwuff — “Green Party excluded from televised debates… again”
ThreeSeven — “May: She joins the debates or I don’t pay for this election”
Russell Ormond — “Tories, Bloc, NDP opposed May’s inclusion in debates”
John Laforest — “Elizabeth May Belongs in the Leaders Debate”
D’Arcy Norman — “on democratic leader’s debates”
The Breadbin — “NO, you May not???”
Ray Arygyle — “Election Debate Outrage”
Far and Wide — “Screwed”
Jennifer O’Meara — “No girls allowed at the debates?”
John Waugh — “Opportunism trumps principle”
Canadian Journalism Project — “Greens and the election debate”
Pogge — “If True, This is Disgraceful”
The Angry Cupcake — “Greens Can’t Participate in Leaders’ Debates”

Update: Andrew Coyne reports that the Bloc Québécois has broken ranks — they are denying that they told the media consortium that they would not attend the debates if the Greens were included. As Coyne notes, you would have a debate that included Dion, Duceppe, and May already. If Jack Layton relented, the only guy standing in the way of the Greens inclusion is Stephen Harper. It’s highly unlikely he would skip the debate if all the other leaders were participating. So it comes down to Jack Layton. What do you say Jack, are you willing to stand on principal and let the Greens speak?

Update: even many of the newspaper editorials are also critical of this decision, which is notable given the extent to which the media is consolidated in Canada (such that many newspapers are owned by the very people who denied the Greens participation – note how canada.com is curiously silent on the issue, which means a plethora of newspapers apparently have no opinon).

Toronto Star — “TV debate hypocrisy”
Globe and Mail — “A club without Greens”

Update: It also appears that NDP leader Jack Layton is taking a lot of heat from his own supporters for his crass political move not block the Greens participation in the debates.

Ottawa Citizen — “NDP Facebook supporters blast Layton over debates”

Update — the Winnipeg Free Press seems to understand the message in a cartoon from today:
may cartoon


25 Comments/commentaires
Leave a comment/Enregistrer un commentaire

That is disappointing. I was looking forward to hearing more from the Greens on non-environmental issues.

I don’t think this is a failure of Canadian democracy though – it is a failure for the environment and electoral reform. The 80% represents a number from an opinion poll. I know you like polling Greg, but since when do opinions polls dictate democracy? Is Canada’s troops in Afghanistan a failure for democracy?

I’ve said it here before, there needs to be clear rules set out as to which party leaders should be allowed to debate. It shouldn’t be arbitrarily decided.

Comment/commentaire by Chris 09.08.08 @ 1:38 pm

I don’t think it was the broadcast consortium that originally said “no” to the Greens. It was one or more of the parties. It was those parties that said that if you invite the Greens, we won’t participate in the debates. How many Canadians would watch Elizabeth May debating herself or just one leader? Very few, I believe.

Comment/commentaire by Skinny Dipper 09.08.08 @ 1:45 pm

Harper, Layton and Duceppe are chickenshit tinpot dictators. I hope Dion grows a pair and boycotts the debates. Let’s see how many viewers the TV nobs get then.

TV is all about selling stuff and the Greens are all about reducing needless consumption. Do we need to draw a diagram to explain why the fatcats don’t want the Greens’ anti-consumption message out there. Harper, Layton and Duceppe are corporate shills and anti-democratic, anti-environment, anti-Earth and anti-Canadian. Shame on them all!

JB

Comment/commentaire by JimBobby 09.08.08 @ 1:55 pm

So far as I know no other leader but Harper has actualy said they are against Ms May speaking, given Mr harpers comments during his press conferance this am I must assume that he has pressured the broadcasters to exclude the Greens by threatening to boycott the debate if she is included. A sad day for demorcracy, they clearly have to be included if democracy is to survive, but then given the actiond of our MPs and in particular our Governing party its already to late.
This is the final straw for me, I was voting ABC because of the undemocratic actions of our present govenment, Now I am voting Green irregardless unless the other partys do indeed “grow some” and refuse to participate unless ALL viable partys are represented. I am not holding my breath. Sue the H out of them Elizabeth, at least you will have some funds for the next election because clealy this is biased and undemocratic, and not in line with past particpation in debates.

Comment/commentaire by rural 09.08.08 @ 2:15 pm

Skinny Dipper — that’s exactly the point. The other parties are clearly scared to allow the Greens to debate, for fear of losing support to them. It’s that simple. The consortium just went along with whatever the party leaders told them to do.

Comment/commentaire by democraticspace 09.08.08 @ 2:21 pm

Personally, I’m not against the Green Party leader being in the debates. It would be interesting to hear what she has to say. However, the other parties have little to gain and a lot to lose if she were to participate. If the Green Party had 12 seats in the House of Commons either by being elected as Greens or through floor-crossing, the other parties would invite the Greens to the debates. IF the Greens surged to 30% of the popular vote, the party would be invited by the others.

Comment/commentaire by Skinny Dipper 09.08.08 @ 2:58 pm

This decision is shocking and I think it will backfire in some way, either against the media or the other parties or both.

Democracy didn’t fail, though. The corporate media did, which isn’t a democratic institution to begin with. If anything, public backlash (or a legal challenge) might yet provide enough pressure to reinstate May in the debates. If that happens, democracy will win. It’s not over yet.

Comment/commentaire by Simon A. Dougherty 09.08.08 @ 3:07 pm

No, Simon, it was 3 parties who objected to the Greens participation: the Conservatives, the NDP, and the Bloc (the Liberals did not object). The “corporate media” (which includes the publicly-funded CBC, whose ties to the NDP become more clear with each new NDP/former CBC candidate — not a bad thing, just a fact) just went along for the ride.

Comment/commentaire by democraticspace 09.08.08 @ 3:18 pm

You need an MP that has been elected (not bought) to enable any party to join the debates. I want to know how much money they Greens spent to buy Blair Wilson in a futile attempt to buy their way into a debate? Having said that under Canadian law to get official party recognition you needs 12 MPS, not one.

Comment/commentaire by Paul B 09.08.08 @ 3:36 pm

The greens can bloody well get in the debates when they EARN a seat in the house. Until then all other points are moot.

Comment/commentaire by Eric 09.08.08 @ 3:37 pm

JB if Dion boycotts the debates it wont matter as nobody west of Ontario can understand him anyway, I hate to say.

Comment/commentaire by Paul B 09.08.08 @ 3:37 pm

“Democracy took a beating today”…

If you were to look at the front page of Progressive Bloggers, you’d think all of our affiliates were Green Party blogs. But that’s not the case. I have of course read Green bloggers outraged at the decision by the broadcast consortium to …

Trackback by Scott's DiaTribes 09.08.08 @ 4:00 pm

I think this is going to backfire on the other parties, particularly the Liberals and NDP (who rely more on potential green party voters). The Green Party has gained more coverage today by NOT being in the debate than if they were quietly allowed to do so.

I’m sure none of the other leaders wanted her in the debate. To blame this solely on Harper is disingenuous. Just because he’s the only one to comment on it doesn’t mean he was the only leader to object. We ask our leaders to be honest with us and then, when they give their opinion, we slag them for it and use it against them. Jack Layton and Stephane Dion do not want to offend environmentally conscious voters, so they will say nothing.

Comment/commentaire by Peter 09.08.08 @ 4:52 pm

Thanks for the mention, but it’s “Green exclusion”!

What a mess, though. I thought better of Jack. Now I have veteran BC NDP pol Bill Tieleman at my place defending the decision and comparing the Greens to the Natural Law Party. Good grief.

Comment/commentaire by Dr.Dawg 09.08.08 @ 6:14 pm

It really doesn’t matter if any leader said they don’t want the Greens in the debate. It’s not their choice; the decision is that of the media consortium, and television is very much a corporate form of media. No one is denying that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation follows a corporate, anti-democratic model, no matter how many of their employees favour stronger democratic practices at their workplace or in political life. Alternative media (i.e. less hierarchical, more democratic media) is more supportive of the idea of an inclusive leaders’ debate, as is evidenced by the reaction in the blogosphere.

Comment/commentaire by Simon A. Dougherty 09.08.08 @ 8:07 pm

I am absolutely f’ing astounded to find the ‘oh woe is us, the media is so biased‘ Conservative crowd agreeing that the media should be allowed to decide what is, or is not, “in the best interests of Canadians“.

Don’t forget to remind them of this.

Comment/commentaire by stageleft 09.08.08 @ 8:12 pm

Harper is trying to portray Dion as the wimp. There’s hardly anything more cowardly than Harper manoevering to keep May out of the debates with his buddies in the network consortium. Why didn’t they say “if you don’t want to attend, then too bad,” rather than “OK, we’ll do as you say.” Do you think Harper would really have stayed away from the debates anyway? The network executives are every bit as cowardly for their decision. I’m outraged.

Comment/commentaire by Geoff 09.08.08 @ 9:17 pm

Democraticspace, I respect what you do on this site, but I find it hard to hard to discuss or debate this issue with you. Nevertheless i will offer this attempt at an analysis and explanation and would appreciate it being treated with some courtesy.

It seems the media asked 4 leaders if they would be willing to take part in a 5 person debate- included would be Harper, Dion, Layton, Duceppe and May.
Harper said No, he would not take part in a 5 person debate, a debate that included May. Dion said Yes, he would be willing to take part in a 5 person debate that included May but he would not take part in a debate that did not include Harper.

So if May was invited, Harper would decline and then Dion would decline because Haper declined.
I gather Layton also said he would not take part in a debate that included May. So if May was invited, Harper would decline, Dion would decline and Layton would decline.
I am not sure about Duceppe but assume he would be willing to take part in a 5 person debate that included May, but would not be willing to be the only person debaaing her-i.e. if May was invited and Harper declined, Dion declined and Layton declined, Duceppe would then also decline.

That seems to be the basic combination that led the media to not invite May. If they invited her the “best” they could get, and it is doubtful they could get that, was a debate between May and Duceppe. so May in, Debate out.

As discussed elsewhere the criteria the Greens use to argue for their inclusion are not accepted as determining the question, by the media. or the courts. There is no rule that says if you get 2% of the vote you get some election financing AND get to be in a Leaders debate or if you get 4.3 % of the vote and run candidates in 307 ridings you get to be in a leaders debate. Nor is it a question of whether you have 1 MP or 8, elected or “floor crossers”. If others won’t debate there can’t be a debate. There have been quite a few elections in Canada without leaders debates and there have been leaders debates without some parties that wanted in – without Greens,Communists whatever. The Greens know they will lose in court and are just playing that line for PR purposes- same way they can live with the Pr from not being in the debate.

I personally support leaving May out of the leaders debate for several reasons.
1. The reasona argued for including the Greens such as discussed above ( they get some election financing and have gotover 4% of the vote) I found in the past only mildly pesuasive but not by any means totally convincing.
2. I am disgusted by the deal with Dion in many of its ramifications, including the denial of democracy to the voters and the endorsement of Dion as PM. Any sympathy I might have had for the Greens, including but not limited to any sympathy for them getting into the deaders debate, started shrinking. Yes, i do think May and Dion do have a deal that preludes her being in the debate.

3. I found the deal with Wilson, the MP with the bad campaign practices, turned away by his own party, the final straw. he only reason May took him seems to be to give her the ultimate argument for getting in the debate. The claim: “See we got an MP, now you have to let me in”, was the ultimate turnoff, given all the circumstances.

See you on the campaign trail.

Comment/commentaire by PJC 09.09.08 @ 1:36 am

The Fascist, corporate, militaristic, secretive (Bush-Bot) Harper Neo-Cons are trying to banish democratic populism. Ohhh, the blatantly authoritarian hypocrisy.

1) Are there not enough Green Party seats ? The (populist) Reform Party only had 1 seat in 1993 and Preston Manning was permitted in the debates.

2) Is there not enough Green Party support ? The Greens got much more support in their last election than the Reform Party did in 1988. Currently, between 1 million and 5 million Canadians are considering voting for the Green party in 2008. The establishment is so obviously feeling threatened by a progressive, populist leader whose party is the epitome of progressive, environmentalist policy.

3) The Green Party doesn’t have official party status ? Well, Neither did the NDP and Progressive Conservative party in 1997, but both were allowed to debate .

3) Are there not enough Green Party candidates ? The Greens ran candidates in all 308 ridings in the last election. Now, how many ridings do the Bloc run in again ?

Again, the authoritarian, secretive, manipulative, hypocritical Neo-Cons are behind this.

“You can’t have one leader on stage that has already endorsed the candidacy of another and signed an electoral co-operation agreement,” said Harper spokesman Dimitri Soudas, referring to a deal reached between May and Dion not to run candidates against each other in their respective ridings.

“When it comes to the debate, they can have May or they can have Dion,” he said.

“But they can’t have both.”

That sounds like the decree of a self-appointed dictator.

Canadian political parties have long had agreements not to run candidates in the riding of the leader of another party. But the Neo-Cons attempt at Green Party banishment and blindly authoritarian hypocrisy shows that that Harper is a ruthless, dictatorial, oblivious Neo-Con just like Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld and Bush. Instead of free debate and genuine democracy, the Neo-Cons have (again) chosen blatant, partisan stifling and hardline repression of opposing viewpoints.

Comment/commentaire by True Progressive 09.09.08 @ 2:21 am

The media should hold the debate with the Greens. Damn the torpedos! The Greens have met the criteria of that the Reform Party and Bloc met to be included in the debates. IIRC the Bloc had no members elected as Bloc Party representatives when they first were admitted to a debate.

If Harper still won’t attend they should put a life size cardboard cut out of him in that cowboy outfit on stage. Same goes for the others. A cut out of Duceppe with that cheese hat. As to Layton, I’m sure there’s tons of him looking like a goof.

Comment/commentaire by mikeb 09.09.08 @ 7:15 am

Mr. Layton, I suggest your party drop the word “Democratic” from their name. It has become a bad joke.

Comment/commentaire by David Strbavy 09.09.08 @ 9:08 am

PJC – you’ve make your position clear. But I think it is coloured by your party affiliation (which is made clear by using NDP talking points as evidence, your point #2 above is straight from the NDP, for example). The question to me is whether the Greens are a player is national politics. If so, they should be included in the debates.

There are no criteria for the debates. That’s the problem. And it is up to the private broadcasters, who are accountable to no one (who are the decision-makers, even?). I, along with many many others, believe that this should be under the purview of Elections Canada, not a private consortium. It is ridiculous that it is up to the parties to exclude their competition — of course they don’t want competition. There is no principle for denying the Greens — it’s purely based on self-interest of the parties.

Not everyone has the same standard for democratic participation as others. I just think that those who would exclude the Greens don’t hold themselves to the same standard as those of us who do support their inclusion.

I find it particularly galling for the NDP to say they support PR but not support the Greens inclusion in the debates. After all, if the NDP had their way (a PR system), the Greens would have 14 MPs already (4.5% of 308). Practice what you preach — either you believe that people’s first choice preferences deserve a voice or you don’t.

Comment/commentaire by democraticspace 09.09.08 @ 10:05 am

Let me get this right. It’s not okay for a Green MP to be in a debate because they crossed the floor. However, it’s ok for an MP to be the Minister of Foreign Affairs after floor crossing? I’m not sure what level of logic that one comes from.

Comment/commentaire by Doug Smith 09.09.08 @ 11:01 am

I see from the news that the Green Party is off to court to try and get into the leader’s debate. The Green Party has tried to do this before (in 1988) and again in the early 90s. There is also a BC case denying the Green Party’s application there. The Natural Law Party (remember Yogic Flying!!!) also tried, I think it was in Federal Court in the mid 1990s.

All the parties who have tried to get into the debates by challenging their exclusion in Court have failed. If you have a “legal browser” like lexis-nexis, enter Green Party into the search engine and you will get the court decisions.

I should also point out that the Green Party had very experienced legal counsel when it tried in 1988 (Steve Goudge- now on the Ontario Court of Appeal) and in the early 90s they had Ian Scott (former Ont. Attorney General and generally regarded as one of Canada’s best advocates).

I would never say never, but I think a legal challenge is doomed to failure, although it may be good politics.

Comment/commentaire by Don Eady 09.09.08 @ 11:19 am

I’ve got a larger list on my blog you can borrow from to stretch yours out a bit.
http://www.abandonedstuff.com/2008/09/08/yellowpartie/

Comment/commentaire by Saskboy 09.09.08 @ 6:21 pm



Leave a comment/Laisser un commentaire
E-mail address never displayed/Votre adresse email ne sera jamais publiee. HTML: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

(required/requis)

(required/requis)



If your comment doesn't appear, it is because our automatic anti-spam software is blocking it. If so, just send us an email and we will post it for you.