Munk Climate Change Debate – Global Treaty or Not?
Tuesday December 01st 2009, 10:47 am
Filed under: - Climate Change, Canadian Politics

I would encourage everyone to watch/listen to the Munk Debates on Climate Change today (Dec 1) at 7pm EST (click the ‘live webcast’ link in the upper left to follow online). The debate will revolve around this question: is this the moment for a bold international treaty to curb carbon emissions? Or, are the social and economic costs of reducing C02 emissions too high in a world where a billion people live on a dollar or less a day? Arguing in favour of an international treaty will be Elizabeth May and George Monbiot, while countering their arguments will be Bjørn Lomborg and Nigel Lawson.

By now, it should be clear to everyone that human actions are having a detrimental effect on the environment generally, and climate change specifically. So I would hope the debate isn’t about the science of climate change — and I don’t think it will be. But I suspect the PRO argument will be essentially outlining the apocalyptic scenario if we fail to get an international treaty, and I suspect the CON argument will revolve around the costs that an international treaty would entail. And that’s because the central question pre-supposes that an international treaty is the key to tackling climate change.

This is unfortunate, because the treaty becomes a proxy for underlying ideological views. And this is where the debate gets complicated. For those of us concerned about climate change, it seems natural to want to support another round of global targets. And those more skeptical or concerned about the costs will naturally not want a treaty. But this sets up a no-win, all-or-nothing scenario tied exclusively to whether or not a treaty gets signed or not, instead of a more productive understanding of what practical measures we can and should take now to tackle climate change.

To get to this more productive place, both sides of the ideological divide will need to shift their thinking.

On the one hand, pro-treaty forces will have to shift their thinking from top-down prescriptions (and you can’t get more top-down than global CO2 reduction targets) to bottom-up solutions. Committing to global CO2 reduction targets to some extent gives false comfort to those in favour of addressing climate change. It would certainly represent a political victory, but unless there is an actual implementation plan attached — created in partnership with provincial (or state) and municipal levels of government that have as much or more of a role in reducing CO2, as well as (at least tacit) buy-in from industries that will be most impacted — then the targets won’t be met. We’ve seen this movie before. In 1992 (Rio), the OECD committed to reducing CO2 emissions back to 1990 levels by 2000, yet CO2 actually increased by 12%. In 1997 (Kyoto), we agreed to cut CO2 emissions by an average of 5.2% below 1990 levels by 2010, yet CO2 actually increased by roughly 25%. Clearly, it is easier to make promises than to actually implement them.

And on the other hand, the anti-treaty forces will need to shift their thinking from seeing solutions to climate change as having inherently negative impacts on the economy to seeing the vast economic opportunities that moving towards a more sustainable path offers. Those arguing against a treaty are often (though not always) arguing against taking any action, seeing that action as an impediment to economic growth. This is a narrow view. Check out former Green Party leader Jim Harris’s National Post column every week, in which he argues that going green is good for the bottom line. It is clear that changes are coming. Those who deny that will lose. Those who embrace and invest in a more sustainable future will win. Not all growth is good, and not all growth is bad.

I believe sustainability (in the broadest sense) is *the* major challenge of our time. But to tackle it will require us moving beyond simplistic debates about whether or not global CO2 targets are the key. We need to understand that moving to a more sustainable path represents an economic opportunity, not an impediment. And we need to move beyond top-down policy objectives to actual implementation plans that focus on bottom-up actions we can take now at local and regional levels.

UPDATE:
Having just watched the debates, I must admit that I was a bit disappointed. A good portion of the debate was spent arguing about the science, which was futile, especially for the audience. I thought the inclusion of Lawson brought down the quality of debate because he is a climate change denier, which forced May and Monbiot on the defensive about the science. I had hoped the debate would really be about the most effective ways of addressing climate change are, but instead the debate was largely about if we should address it (and I applaud May for making this very point). It seemed the audience was more swayed by the PRO side, with roughly 60% of voters supporting the question and roughly 70% of viewers thought the PRO side won the debate. As for the debaters, Monbiot was the clear winner, with roughly 45% of viewers saying he was the best, Lomborg was second with roughly 25% support, May third with roughly 20% support and Lawson clearly the least favoured at just 10% support. I also thought Monbiot made the most compelling case, largely because he appealed to people’s sense of justice and fairness, rather than rely on statistics (which is frankly not effective as an oral device — most people’s eyes glaze over when so many numbers are tossed around). Lawson rambled far too much and seemed rather dismissive of the other side. As one commenter said, “May seemed to a personal vendetta against Lomborg”, and at one point seemed to have her mike cut as she tried to talk over him and the moderator. Lomborg had at least a plausible argument in that he accepted climate change as real, but argued it would be more effective to spend money solving the problems created by climate change rather than spend money trying to reduce CO2 (which he seemed to think was futile). But I didn’t think he made a particularly strong case to back up that claim. Anyway, it was a useful to watch if only to remind myself of how far we really have to go.


15 Comments/commentaires
Leave a comment/Enregistrer un commentaire

She comes across as a rabid nutbar who won’t sit down – having to be quelled by the host as she won’t shut up.

yELL, eLIZABETH, YELL!

Comment/commentaire by who 12.01.09 @ 6:20 pm

@who:

I watched the debate and they were cut off after Bjorn interrupted her. If you watch that section, you would see that he interrupted her response twice and it was then that oth microphones were turned off. More importantly, she had no idea it was off. In any event, your comment shows that you watched a debate about one of the most important topics this century and focussed on this one moment rather than substance.

Even worse than that is to comment on a useless comment about a meaningless moment…..oh no, that’s me!

Comment/commentaire by Mike 12.01.09 @ 8:17 pm

She’s been debating people for what? 35-40 yrs?

And she knows not enough when the moderator tells her the time is up, or she is so restless, eager to shout down the opposition that she can’t even remain seated until it is her turn?

Nutty. And obsessed.

Comment/commentaire by who 12.01.09 @ 8:37 pm

I see the crowd agreed with my assessment. May/Monbiot lost the debate – going from 61% down to 56%.

http://www.munkdebates.com/

Comment/commentaire by who 12.02.09 @ 12:48 pm

@who – I think you might be reading into things; I’m not sure I think people thought May/Monbiot lost the debate. In fact, on that exact question, about 70% said the PRO side won the debate. Moreover, Monbiot was the “best debater” choice of ~45% and May about ~20% (so the PRO side was seen to be the better debaters by about 2/3s of people). I suspect that a few people switched their vote after realizing the resolution wasn’t just calling it the climate crisis mankind’s defining crisis *right now* but defining crisis *of all time*. The resolution was not especially well worded.

Comment/commentaire by Greg Morrow 12.02.09 @ 1:00 pm

The resolution: Be it resolved climate change is mankind’s defining crisis, and demands a commensurate response

I don’t read the resolution to be *of all time* – if the attendees were convinced by the AGAINST side that that is how the resolution should be interpreted, then the PRO side was beaten. Of course, you could always argue about what the definition of “is” is.

The resolution, as written, is not unlike the message I have heard May preaching for ages – we must act now, the species is at risk, doomsday if we we don’t do something drastic within the next x number of months.

In terms of who won the debate, I guess it depends upon what metric you chose. I’m not sure some of the poll numbers you are referring to were obtained from online surveys – I seem to recall numbers appearing on the bottom of the broadcast before the final polling on the debate was completed. In which case, I suspect the sample was skewed towards Green/green supporters – but I’ll leave that to you to clarify.

Comment/commentaire by who 12.02.09 @ 1:23 pm

Greg,

I wondered why you hadn’t responded to my last comment,so I did some more digging. I looked into the live comment stream, and it appears that is where you obtained your data above:

“In fact, on that exact question, about 70% said the PRO side won the debate. Moreover, Monbiot was the “best debater” choice of ~45% and May about ~20% (so the PRO side was seen to be the better debaters by about 2/3s of people).

The online polss can be found here:
http://www.munkdebates.com/LiveStream/

see entry at 8:11 for who is winning the debate, and 8:57 on who won the debate.

So, I can fairly conclude that these were online polls (not those who were in the room in person) and as a result are biased (or not necessarily representative of the 61%/56%).

You should know better – I suspect you do.

Comment/commentaire by who 12.02.09 @ 8:18 pm

@who, not sure i would agree that the online polls are any more skewed than the in-theatre poll — neither are randomly selected samples, since in both cases the audience was self-selected. i have no way or knowing who comprised the in-theatre or online audiences and neither do you.

Comment/commentaire by Greg Morrow 12.03.09 @ 9:08 am

That’s why, Greg, you remove the bias by polling the support for the motion before and after the debate- then the score of who won the debate has a baseline of comparison.

The scores you quote are a single poll, of online viewers – they are not a controlled group, and there is no before /after scores to compare. Justa a single data point. Not at all comparable.

Comment/commentaire by who 12.03.09 @ 11:21 am

The motion before the audience was: “Climate change is mankind’s defining crisis, and demands a commensurate response” — Agree or Disagree.

The warmists won the battle, but lost the war. By that I mean that at the end, the audience of 1,050 voted 56% in favour of May/Monbiot versus 44% for Lomborg/Lawson.

But since the debate format correctly decides the winners not by who gets the most votes in the final tally — which largely depends on the motion’s initial popularity with the audience — but rather by who changes the most minds during the debate, Lomborg and Lawson triumphed.

That’s because before the debate started, 61% of the audience identified itself as favouring the warmist view, with only 39% in support of the skeptics.

This means that in two hours, Lomborg and Lawson managed a five-point shift in the audience’s views and thus a 10-point swing over to their side.

http://www.ottawasun.com/comment/columnists/lorrie_goldstein/2009/12/03/12016566-sun.html

Comment/commentaire by who 12.03.09 @ 11:36 am

@who, citing Lorrie Goldstein in support of climate change is about as useful as citing Bill Maher in support of religion. Both are well known skeptics. We can only speculate why the end-of-debate numbers were slightly lower than the beginning-of-debate numbers. When I first read the question, I took it to mean climate change was today’s most pressing issue, but as the debate went along, I realized some people were taking it to mean literally the defining crisis of all time, which I’m not sure I would even agree with. I suspect that others might have had the same impression. But it’s pure speculation, we just don’t know. What we do know is this: the question was asked directly: “who won the debate?” and ~70% said the PRO side. Asked which were the best debaters and ~2/3 gave the nod to Monbiot/May.

Comment/commentaire by Greg Morrow 12.03.09 @ 3:57 pm

Hey Greg, that was cute. Lorrie Goldstein was tlking about the methodology of scoring the debate. So, you choose to discredit her by making some claims about her bias on the issue of the debate.

Had you taken the time to note the publication of her article, you will note it is a full day after I made essentially the same claim. Your commentary is full of spin on this item 0- frankly I’m surprised, and disappointed. I thought you were above that.

Live and learn.

Comment/commentaire by who 12.03.09 @ 5:12 pm

@who – I’m just citing #s to the very question asked that you want answered — ~70% of people said the PRO side won the debate. It can’t get any clearer than that.

Comment/commentaire by Greg Morrow 12.04.09 @ 9:03 am

Well, if you went to all of the Green Blogger sites, and the GPC blogs, you’d get a score of 100% thought E May won the debate – equally invalid.

Comment/commentaire by who 12.04.09 @ 11:10 am

@who, I would agree with your statement. But we have no way of knowing if the online or in-theatre audiences were stacked with supporters of one side or the other. As both are self-selected, neither conforms to accepted polling practice, so it amounts to a straw poll. Given the size of the audience (3,000 total), I would seriously doubt the Greens (who only have about 10,000 members in all of Canada) had a strong enough presence to make much of a difference.

Comment/commentaire by Greg Morrow 12.04.09 @ 2:23 pm



Leave a comment/Laisser un commentaire
E-mail address never displayed/Votre adresse email ne sera jamais publiee. HTML: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

(required/requis)

(required/requis)



If your comment doesn't appear, it is because our automatic anti-spam software is blocking it. If so, just send us an email and we will post it for you.